Interview with Doa Aly

Interview with Doa Aly

IF: Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and thank you for coming tonight. This talk will be held in English and an Arabic translation of the transcribed text will be available later on the series blog website.

Thanks to CiC for hosting this talk tonight and thank you Doa for giving me this opportunity to interview you.

DA: Thank you, its my pleasure.

IF: Let me start my interview by asking you about the body in your work, a lot of your work is premised on the body, how it's constrained, its limitations, its restrictions, maybe if you could talk a bit about that?

DA: I must begin by saying that I had this academic training in painting so the idea of figurative painting, sort informed my interests later, I have always been interested in figurative arts of the bodies, basically the shift was the start of my interest in movement, the idea of constrained movement and the whole hypothetical work I was doing about the transition from being a normal, common body with a certain history and body language to being an ideal body that exhibits a certain superior identity, with just the way they look and express themselves. As I was telling you earlier, the interest in movement started with this hypothesis, for every body there is a trajectory from A to B and that A, starts with me for example, I would call myself an example of the common body and B would be an ideal that I would aspire to, I want to reach. And that ideal would be being a ballet dancer or an acrobat player or a trapeze artist or whatever through training.

IF: I remember in our conversation you talked a bit about how this movement from the ordinary body to this ideal, accomplished body and the interruption that happens in the middle when you realize that you -

DA: Actually the interruption is really the point I focus on in the work. So the interruption for me is when you fail to reach that ideal and you are left with a hybrid body. A body that is neither the same body that you started with, the language has changed, the expression has changed, but it has assimilated a certain form but it has not reached the ideal that it wanted to reach and so that, the interruption happens between A and B and then it takes you into a third trajectory altogether.

IF: You also mentioned your interest about the capacities of the body and its limits and its abilities and you mention that the work somehow is about how these capacities materialize. If you could maybe elaborate on that a bit?

DA: They are not capacities, really. They are incapacities that do materialize, its about a failure to reach that, but it is some kind of 'productive failure', because something else happens that actually has value, this hybrid body or this hybrid form of expression is actually valuable in itself. And once I discovered that this could happen actually with '48 Ballet Classes' I became more and more interested in choreographing or creating these kinds of distorted expressions.

IF: Let me move from there to what you then think is the distinction between basic movement and choreography? And how would you define your idea of both? How would you situate it?

DA: My idea of basic movement is basically this [gestures]- like what I do, involuntarily as part of my whole body language and how I express myself this is how I define basic movement versus choreographed is the idea of - the attempt to recreate that as the choreography which there is always a very slight shift when you try to reproduce that, it never looks the same, its a bit artificial but that would be the difference for me.

IF: You also mentioned before that you are interested in “movement that lends itself to repetition”

DA: That would be the idea of – its more ...to choreograph movement as opposed to-

IF: Improvise?

DA: Improvise or just record everyday movement – I am interested in devising movement, movement that we would know, myself and the performers, its new they just discovered this movement, we record it and we repeat it basically.

IF: It would be interesting if we perhaps move on further and think of the distinction you make between the very controlled, voluntary movement and the involuntary movement, and I specifically speak of your interest in certain psychic states such as patients of hysteria, catatonic body, epileptic body and sort of how you play with that, in terms that it is also some kind of movement.

DA: There are the extreme performances, like ballet, trapeze, synchronised swimming and all of that which requires training and if you take the training out, the year and years of training and you are just left with the outcome and you want to juxtapose it to something else that would be at the other end of the spectrum for example, so this is the very [….] training the very disciplined, very deliberate kind of movement that eventually is very much assimilated and still requires training, and the other end of this spectrum is completely involuntary movement that is also quite extreme and not violent, but is interesting as a form of expression, which for me would be like catatonia, the spectrum of catatonia

IF: How then would you somehow extract movement out of that? Do you also think of sequence when you are trying lets say to work with-

DA: Extract movement out of what?

IF: Lets say the state of catatonia for example, this is a state of movement also

DA: I don't. When it comes to the interest in catatonia and dementia in general, its really an interest in- its a fascination with the image and the text. And this is how it also comes in the work.

IF: Let me then move from movement to the image and ask you the simple question of: Why Video?

DA: Because I needed a moving image. Because at some point I needed movement that extends over time and doing painting was not – the way I use painting, the way I have always used the canvas, the surface is, as a two dimensional surface. I never liked the idea of creating the illusion of a three dimensional space or theater or painting as a theater, I never liked that, it has always been a two dimensional space for me. That could only lend itself to forms and certain abstractions. And at some point when I started thinking about movement, I needed video so I can actually film movement.

IF: My next question then would be, were you interested in the technical possibilities that video offered? There are so many possibilities you could use, because I remember in a former conversation you said, you are not interested in the possibilities of editing-

DA: No I am! We need editing [laughing] I like using the bare minimum in any medium. So I use video to document. When I started video I was very insecure about it -

IF: Why?

DA: Having been trained as a painter so the easiest thing for me was a fixed frame, wide shot and I sort of stuck with that. I play very little with camera movement, close-ups, and all the things that camera tends to do. We need editing!

IF: The idea of working with a medium stripped to its bare form, or the idea of working with a fixed system, let me quote you: 'the idea of production within a rigid system', do you then create those limitations yourself when you are in a creative process? Do you then put those limits to yourself and say this is how the system is and this is how it is going to function?

DA: Actually its funny because it started as a hypothesis that informed the early works like '48 Ballet Classes', and 'Gray Matter' and the hypothesis was that while you are moving from trajectory A to B, its a very preset trajectory within which you are unable to move freely, but you are moving freely within a very strict, limited trajectory. And somehow this idea turned into a process. So I do set great limits to myself. Very rigid, mathematical kind of system. And within which- once I set that I let thing happens by intuition a lot within the grid.

IF: So maybe it would actually be good if we screen something of your work now [addressing the audience] I would like to share with you some of Doa's work.

DA: What do you want to share?

IF: Tress of Hair?

DA: Or Sequence One?

IF: Sequence One

IF: [addressing the audience] The video is seven minutes, its called Sequence One a part of sequence – [addressing Doa] maybe then it would be better if you explain

DA: Sequence One in Four Movements is part of a series of four videos all based on Ovid's Metamorphoses and this one is based on Narcissus and Echo as told by Ovid

[Screen video] 

IF: What I would like to bring up next is the use of text, because it is something that you work with a lot, and it is something that is part of the process, part of the work that you do. I have went through the list of texts you used over time and I have selected certain quotes from these texts, and I would like to read them and share them with the audience. And if you could just maybe reflect on some of those texts.

DA: Ok I just need to say something because we talk a lot about the body and movement in early work and there was a transition between what I was doing in the beginning which was basically called [.....] documentary taking classes, putting myself through the experience and filming this and just [.... ]that, and then there was a year where I experimented with documentary just pure and simple and another year where I had a complete block and was drawing and then when I came back to video in 2008 with 'Tress of Hair'. I really wanted to make a video that very much looked like painting, a moving painting, that was the ambition. So I had all those ideas about movement and choreography and all of that plus the desire to make something beautiful and moving, certain virtuosic aesthetics. And in order to do that, I thought I needed text to base that on. And I knew I could actually not write stories, so this is when I started using text, stories that I had read when I was a teenager and that I really liked. And that is the start of using literature as a base for my videos.

IF: You say stories you liked as a teenager, some of this stuff is very dark!

DA: 'Tress of Hair' has been with me for a very long time. You actually bump into Maupassant in high school easily. And then he sticks with you.

IF: I chose one quote from 'Tress of Hair', the quote goes: "What a singular thing temptation is! One gazes at an object, and, little by little, it charms you, it disturbs you, it fills your thoughts as a woman's face might do. The enchantment of it penetrates your being, a strange enchantment of form, colour and appearance of an inanimate object. And one loves it, one desires it, one wishes to have it. A longing to own it takes possession of you, gently at first, as though it were timid, but growing, becoming intense, irresistible."

DA: 'Tress of Hair' is about a guy who finds a tress of hair in an old cabinet and becomes completely obsessed with it. And falls in love with it. And then becomes mad eventually because he imagines the woman that this tress of hair belong to, came back to life because it was prompted by the warm caresses he was giving her hair. What really interested me in this story is the parts where he- the descriptions of how he was touching the tress of hair and his obsession with touching and he was then down the transition from being disgusted by it to being completely in love and obsessed with it and not being able to be without it. And that actually was the inspiration behind the whole project, the single movement of the immersed fingers in the tress of hair and the repeated description of the sensation and actually in the beginning I wanted this to be- I started making up a whole sign language to tell the story, that was the initial idea for tress of hair. And I started working with a sign language teacher, who did not like the story at all, he was very conservative, he refused to work on it but we have actually started with a few sentences to sign the story and I just thought I would have someone

in front of the camera sign the whole story. And then I thought that this is not enough that there has to be something else with this story, that something would close this cycle of madness and then the idea of including 'Bertha' came in. 'Tress of Hair' is based on two stories, 'Bertha' and 'Tress of Hair' interweaved together and you want to read the quote from 'Bertha'?

IF: I picked a quote from 'Bertha' and it reads: “She began to grow thin; every other thought, every other wish, every other expectation, and every confused hope disappeared from her mind, and the hours during which she did not see him became hours of terrible suffering to her"

DA: 'Bertha', on the other hand, as described by Maupassant, is a very dumb Venus. She is an extremely beautiful girl, she is actually very retarded, she doesn't recognize anybody, neither her parents or her family, the only thing she's able to recognise is the different types of food. And then her doctor decided to use this to teach her how to read the clock. To starve her basically and only give her favourite foods in certain hours, after turning the dials of the clock, to teach her how to read the clock. He succeeds eventually but it stops there he cannot teach her anything after that. Eventually her parents decide to marry her because they hope that when she becomes pregnant she will become more intelligent, so they marry her and she becomes as obsessed with her husband as she was with food. She waits for him, she looks at the clock and hours go by and she knows exactly when he comes and leaves and all that by the hour. And eventually he is tired of the beautiful and dumb creature and he starts mistreating her, then they kick him out, they move her away. They tried to unlearn everything, they take all the clocks out, they block the windows and they basically try to reverse the whole process. But they can't. And Maupassant puts it beautifully, in the end he said, “the stupid girl has become mad”. So, for me the story of 'Bertha' kind of worked very well with the story of 'Tress of Hair'.

IF: I wish I could play the video of 'Tress of Hair', but I am sorry my laptop is not functioning as it should-

DA: It's on Vimeo

IF: It's on Vimeo, I can give you the links for the videos later. But you actually used the text in the video, you inserted certain sentences with certain scenes, right?

DA: Yeah

IF: How did you come to choose those sentences or how did you decide this goes after this – did it progress organically with the process?

DA: Totally. 'Tress of Hair' was completely organic. Again going back to this idea of having a few settings in the system and then letting things flow within that. The system that I had was that I will have each character play two roles, so Bertha is an object, she is the tress of hair and she is Bertha. And the mad man is also the doctor who teaches her. And I have created three characters that are just mentioned in Tress of Hair. When the guy, the mad man, who is a keen collector of antiques, talks about how he does not really care for love, the only passion he has, is passion for old objects, especially those trinkets that belong to dead women. And he talks about how he imagines those women and how they loved and who they loved and all of this. At one point he talks about women of yesterday and his love for women of yesterday. So the women of yesterday, became real women, three women who function in the video as the audience, as the women of yesterday, as society, the parents, whoever, who are constantly monitoring Bertha, and the madman and who are also the gatekeepers of the story, somebody has to perform the story in front of them. So I had this structure in place and then how will everybody move in the space, when- and I had functions for everybody, certain parts of the story translated into symbolic movement for example, the touching of the tress of hair, the touching of Bertha's head, the tri-chair, the chair where three women are and all of this. There was a function that stood symbolically for each section of the text, and then the order of that just happened organically. Like what would come after what -

IF: Through experimenting?

DA: There was a story board, it was very well prepared and everything, but how this story board moved, when they will move out of this room, and who will do what when, that came intuitively

IF: The other texts I tried to get quotes for, were the Metamorphoses by Ovid, I selected some verses. This is the Dryden translation, its a bit classical, and a bit too-

DA: Old fashioned

IF: Very old fashioned, very literary, I apologise for that, but I was biased in my choice.

DA: It's not the version I worked with.

IF: Yes, Doa worked with a more contemporary version

DA: [laughing]

IF: From Transformation of Echo, the verses I zeroed in were:

“She can't begin, but waits for the rebound,

To catch his voice, and to return the sound.

Her bones are petrify'd, her voice is found

In vaults, where still it doubles ev'ry sound.”

DA: So Narcissus and Echo – where do I start- I don't know if I should be tying this story with Narcissus and Echo

IF: Maybe your choice behind it

DA: Yes exactly, the really interesting thing behind the story of Narcissus and Echo was the idea of following that also mirrors, which happens a lot in Ovid, in the Metamorphoses. How stories just mirror one another, or sometimes mirror each other in reverse, which makes them cancel one another, so this idea of movement that cancels itself or movement that repeats and movement that mirrors was very much in my sequences, in all of them. That's why also they are on four screens and its always the same performer that is either echoing himself or cancelling his own movement or repeating his own movement.

IF: Maybe if you could describe the myth of Echo very quickly for those who are not familiar with it?

DA: Well, Narcissus was lost in the woods and Echo, a nymph has spotted him. He, of course, was a gorgeous gorgeous boy at sixteen, he's never seen himself so he is not aware of how beautiful he is. Echo sees him, falls immediately in love and she wants him. She follows him, but Echo had actually suffered an earlier metamorphoses in which she lost her voice, because she talked so much to distract Juno while Zeus was flirting with other nymphs. So she cursed her by making her unable to initiate speech, so she can only talk to people by repeating whatever she hears and she repeats the same exact words. So Echo followed Narcissus but really she can't talk to him, she is just following, so he comes out in the woods and he says 'whose there?' and Echo says, 'Whose there?' and then he says, 'Come here', and Echo is like, 'Come here', and then he walks a little bit more, she follows him and he's like, 'Come out', and she comes out and says, 'Come out!' and he is like, 'Stay away from me, I don't want you', and she says, 'I don't want you', 'You will never have your way with me', he says and she says, 'You'll never have your way with me'! Anyway, it is really funny, as well as very moving, Narcissus keeps saying things with certain intentions that she repeats with totally different intentions, so it is really interesting. But anyway, he completely rejects her, she is heartbroken and she pines away until she becomes nothing but voice which keeps echoing all the other voices, especially Narcissus until he dies. Someone sees that, I can't remember who, and decides that Narcissus must suffer the pains of unrequited love, eventually Narcissus comes upon a pond, leans over to drink, sees his image for the first time and falls in love with the man in the water and tries to seduce him, the man in the water repeats every movement so Narcissus becomes very confused and thinks why wouldn't he come out, he seems to be very interested in me, like I am in him. Eventually he realises that its his own reflection and that his love can never be consummated and kills himself in despair and becomes a flower.

IF: It gets worse! [laughing]

I also tried to select some quotes from the Passion of Byblis and the quote goes – what I think is interesting about you describing the story of Narcissus and Echo its a very similar formula for the rest of Ovid's stories so we don't have to dwell on each and every single one of them but just to give everyone a feel of what it was like to read it. So for the Passion of Byblis, the quote I selected goes on to say:

“And to the wond'ring world her love confess'd;

O'er hills and dales, o'er rocks and streams she flew,

But still in vain did her wild lust pursue:

Wearied at length, on the cold earth she fell,

And now in tears alone could her sad story tell.

Relenting Gods in pity fix'd her there,

And to a fountain turn'd the weeping fair.”

DA: The Passion of Bybliss, Bybliss was in love with her twin brother Caunus. Footnote here about my choices.

IF: Exactly [overlapping with Doa].

DA: I am very much interested in this game of love that leads to madness, unrequited love, desire, yearning. This idea -which was very much present in Ovid, thats why I love him- the idea of sexuality that is really destroyed at its moment of initiation. Which is very much present in all of these stories, Hermaphrodite, Narcissus and Byblis. Byblis is very interesting as a story, as a narrative because its all narrated by Byblis herself and its composed of three letters, or soliloquies where she starts by being- she has a dream where she is sleeping with her brother and wakes up totally disgusted and the first soliloquy she starts with her total disdain, totally disgusted at herself that she might think of that, that she might want that. But then eventually in the second soliloquy she's like, 'why don't I try? Maybe I could send him a letter and see what happens', she sends him a letter, he completely rejects her and almost kills the messenger. The third soliloquy is her thinking that 'maybe sending him a letter was the wrong idea, I should have told him myself'. So it is really the transition between- and this where you are already see how she very slowly becomes mad in her reasoning, how her reasoning transforms from being completely disgusted by this to thinking of the best method to do this and being totally adamant and she went to convince her brother to love her back and all that. Eventually he flees the country to get away from her, she follows him everywhere, and while walking in his pursuit, she starts becoming mad and then falls to the ground and becomes a- she does not become a fountain actually, she becomes a pond.

IF: The next text I picked was Gradiva, which is a novel by Wilhelm Jensen and the novel is mainly remembered because Freud wrote a big analysis on it, if I am not mistaken and the novel is in a summary discusses how an archaeologist discovers a bas-relief of a lady about to walk.

DA: If we have internet I can show it to you.

IF: Let me try and get the image – that is the bas-relief that the archaeologist discovers

DA: Which really exists in the collection of the Vatican

IF: It is a real bas-relief. Doa based her video A Girl Splendid in Walking on the novel and I actually picked a small line from it:

“That is Gradiva”—her real name Norbert could not supply—“the daughter of ——, she walks more beautifully than any other girl in our city.”

DA: So this is the real sculpture [pointing to the image of the sculpture] and the novel is based on the sculpture and the video is based on the novel. And in the novel the archaeologist finds the sculpture and he starts obsessing about this girl and especially her manner in walking because it is different than any other walk he has seen. Actually the book by Freud on the novel was, 'Delusion and Dreams'. He dreams of her while night walking in Pompeii and minutes before the eruption of Vesuvius and dying in the eruption, he sees her buried in the ashes. He wakes up totally convinced that she didn't die in Pompeii and as an archaeologist he could go there and discover her footprints. So he goes there, up until this point in the novel Norbert is a very factual, scientific person even the language is very dry, and short sentence, he goes to Pompeii and he sees her, she's walking, crossing from one street to the other, he goes to her and starts speaking to her in Latin, she replies in German and she says ,'if you want to talk to me, you will have to speak German'. So they start talking and they have all these - this quick, where he talks to her as the ghost, a 200o years old ghost of the woman of that time and she decides to play along, play the ghost, and tells him that ok she'll come meet him at the noon hour. After that Norbert starts seeing the signs and the symbols everywhere, he sees a lizard he thinks its a messenger, he sees a butterfly he thinks its a person, the whole narrative sorts of disintegrates, becomes something else and there is so much description of the scorching light of the noon hour and the heat and the figure and the walking, it becomes something else entirely. At some point in the beginning of the novel as well, he begins to wonder if the sculptors who made this made it from a real model or invented the walk. Eventually when the woman gets tired of it she is like, 'I have to tell you the truth Norbert, I am Zoe, I am your neighbour, I have been your neighbour forever, I have been in love with you since we were kids but you decided to dump me off at some point'. And this is where, as Freud says, she restores his sanity and love at the same time. My video is basically based on the walk. A woman who has a ghost and they both have the same walk and they use for different functions. One of them uses it to collect light, the light of the noon hour, with her feet and the other uses it to trace the footprint of the ruins, the ruined palace in Amman. And the makers of the sculpture, for me became the twins in the video, who make an image of the walking girl in order to perform this ritual of adoration, where they put her on the ceiling and sort of stand underneath it. The archaeologist becomes a hypnotist where he teaches the girl with his hands, and with pantomime how to walk this walk, basically he sets the whole video in motion , he sets the twins and the girl and everybody once he teaches her the walk with his hands and that is basically the Girl Splendid in Walking.

IF: One last text, the one by Badiou, The Fifteen Theses, it was the Fourth Thesis that you worked on. So Badiou gave a talk, I think it was two years ago and in it he described 15 theses that somehow govern contemporary art, and curator Bassam Al-Baroni commissioned artists

to respond to those theses. Doa was – I am not sure did you pick this one or did he assign it to you?

DA: He assigned it to me

IF: He assigned this thesis to Doa, and it goes: “There is necessarily a plurality of arts, and however we may imagine the ways in which the arts might intersect there is no imaginable way of totalizing this plurality.”

DA: I made a text collage which is text composed from various texts on the plurality of consciousness.

IF: Did you select any particular texts or?

DA: The texts were most from early -

IF: I remember there was C.C Jung [overlapping]

DA: From early 20thc medical books on hysteria and dementia so they are mostly accounts of women situations interweaved with fiction, actually another story from Maupassant called, 'The Man Woman' and text about hypnosis, so basically what happens is I start telling the story of this woman who is in a fanatic fit and she wants to be crucified by her sisters, account of a true story, and then when she dies I sort of bring her back again through one of the texts where a woman is walking towards an asylum to talk to someone and something happens and she dies again and comes back again through various texts, this happens like three or four times and then in the end I conclude with a text about self-hypnosis, also from a very early medical book about how people can induce a state of self-hypnosis in themselves and could be buried and come back to life. So the text was about the plurality of consciousness.

IF: Was the plurality of consciousness in terms of extreme consciousness or specific states of consciousness?

DA: It is really just negating this quote. Because what was happening was not really happening or was not possible to happen so its really denying or negating the idea of the plurality of arts through an analogy with plurality of consciousness.

IF: I will release you soon!

DA: Its ok, I am enjoying this very much!

IF: I am going to move to something I am concerned with and I am interested to question all the artists I know about, and I am going to quote you from a conversation, a private conversation you had with Rana El Nemr, you two were talking about how it has become very easy to reproduce or replicate the image and you described this as “the plague of the image” that it has somehow become an inherent quality, that it can be virally transcribed and I wanted to ask you if this in any way affects how you deal with the image and in our previous conversations I was wondering whether it factors in any way with your artistic process?

DA: If I worry that the work I produce will be copied?

IF: Not just copied, it has become incredibly easy to manufacture or decompose an image or deconstruct it in a way, this sort of easy access to image construction or destruction even.

I think it also brings in the idea of composition and agency as well, because in a previous conversation you were talking about you would still need a process to produce a video for example.

DA: I really think it is much easier to copy an image rather than something we do, where every single detail has an intention, always calculated in a certain way. I think it would be much easier to create your own video rather than reproduce one.

IF: But this brings me to the idea that we are becoming more “visually oriented”, we are talking about the span of attention -

DA: Yes we talked about whether I would want to make the videos shorter-

IF: For example [laughing]

DA: No!

If I can still enjoy 45 mins long videos, if I can still expect this from myself, then I can still expect it from the audience. I think when I start having issues watching video, I will make mine shorter. And mine are shorter anyway! The longest one is 15 mins.

IF: You do agree with me that there is a certain sense of accelerated time that people are much more – I don't want to say impatient

DA: You were saying memory -

IF: I was talking about memory, that it has become very fragmented and maybe this somehow affects how we understand a visual narrative, such as a video, for example. I don't know, I am just asking you, thinking with you out loud on this. I mean when you recall a certain image or a certain, lets say a video are you at all affected by your own span of attention, does it ever bother you at all or?

DA: No not really. Actually I am not such a consumer of the “internet”, maybe thats why as well.

IF: But its interesting to see how you position yourself from it, thats one thing and since you are not also a consumer like you described this also explains a lot. Because I think those who are, are avidly consuming images and videos all the time, I wonder, how this -after a certain time- affects their perception of the image

DA: Lets play HCF (Hysterical Choir of the Frightened). Not because of ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder), but there is something about everything that is happening right now that makes it more difficult to carry out the same kind of work, the meditative, slow work. There is instinctive reaction, not against it but leaning towards something else, something more neurotic, wanting things not to happen faster, but more intense. But that thing that is intense could also last for an hour, if its well paced, I wouldn't mind.

IF: While the video loads, lets have the last question. I wasn't joking, this is the last question, I am going to release you after!

My last question is about your own subjectivity as an artists and how it sort of presents itself to you-

DA: My own?

IF: Subjectivity – Egyptian, Arab, Artist,...etc you can have as many qualifications as you want to that statement and in our former conversation, you were talking about – I want actually to quote you one last time, your article Art Can, and maybe I should do that. I quote Doa, from a text she wrote, its called Art Can:

“Personally, what I really want from art is the thrill of exclusion, the pleasure of nearing, the experience. Desperate for it, I start dissecting. I take what I like from the work, and leave out what I don’t. What I usually take is the Art. And that’s the beauty of it: art will only assert its contemporariness and engagement insofar as it readily renounces both.” Thoughts?

DA: In relation to your question, I think what I mean that is, where I come from, what I am, where I live these are things that are established, a priori, I should treat them as such, they are present, they exist before the thought, before the work, and I should not be compelled t0- not to prove them, but to talk about them, basically, I already talk from them so its enough.

IF: I was going to quote you, one last time, when you said, art should not be about this, art should happen from this.

IF: These were my questions for Doa, thank you all and thank you so much Doa.

DA: Thank you for coming, and thank you Ismail.